charlie Saiz has been looking at some facts and figures, and may have drawn an interesting comparison.
Second Season Comparison
Lennon 2011-12 Deila 2014-15
League (after 12 games)
LENNY………………………….. RONNY
League Position 3rd ………..League Position 1st
Won 7 Drawn 2 Lost 3 …….Won 9 Drawn 2 Lost 1
Goals For 23 Against 12 ….Goals For 31 Against 9
Points 23 ……………………….Points 29
League Cup
Played 2 Won 2 ………………Played 2 Won 2
Goals Scored 6 ………………Goals Scored 4
Goals Conceded 1…………. Goals Conceded 1
European Qualification:
(Europa League) ………….. (Champions League)
Played 2 ……………………… Played 6
Drawn 1 Lost 1 ……………..Won 4 Drawn 1 Lost 1
Goals Scored 1…………….. Goals Scored 10
Goals Conceded 3 …………Goals Conceded 5
Europa League Group Stage
LENNY……………………… RONNY
Points 2…………………….. Points 2
Played 3 Played 3
Drawn 2 Lost 1…………… Drawn 2 Lost 1
Goals Scored 2…………… Goals Scored 5
Goals Conceded 4………. Goals Conceded 7
Looking at the above it would have to be said that this Seasons start for Ronny is actually slightly better than Lennys second Season at Celtic.
Is it a sign of progress ?
190,000,000% NO!!! do we remember last week in molde? or malmo? or losing a 2 goal lead to fenerbache.. or our pathetic performance in aberdeen?? cmon man, forget season under lenny (where he got to the champions league twice) this is the here and now and its garbage!!!! even last night for 70 mins was poor, poor passing and no end product!!!! the stats should be that if we stay with this man we will not qualify for UCL… lets just see what happens with the last 3 europa games…. forget anything we do domestically
We went out to Malmo 3-2 on Aggregate.
1 goal to a side who currently sit 3rd in their Champions League Group behind Madrid and PSG.
Molde put 3 past Fenerbache in Turkey incidentally and curently sit on top of our group 2 wins and a draw.
Time you started showing a bit of respect to these sides they are no wlakovers as some might seem to think.
Interesting seeing the stats. Think the problem with Deila’s teams are that they are not organised defensively. While they get away with it in the league, as the stats show, when we play in Europe we lose more goals.
Exactly bgbhoy! the fair on offer last night again was poor and against a team who last year were plying there trade in the championship.it’s a sad state of affairs that we are looking to pull out stats from anywhere just to justify Deila
hailhail,
Hearts are no mugs, Tynecastle on a Wednesday night is a difficult game.
We beat them and got through, that is all that matters on the night.
I am no lover of Ronny Deila but if he keeps Celtic winning that’ll do for me.
A lot of hard graft and endeavour to be done yet tho…
Delighted we are in another semi final. HH
Spot on Monti.
Hearts walked the Championship and have faired fairly well this Season and look to me like a side on the up.
Cup ties are notoriously difficult (Morton anyone?) and even moreso at places like Tynecastle.
We are nowhere near our best yet this Season yet here we are still in all Competitions at least able to improve in them all.
Time will tell whether we do.
Anyone got the stats on Monti and Charlie in agreement???
I’m surprised at those stats Charlie although our league was arguably stronger in Lenny’s term.
We still have room for improvement.
Rangers were gash and imploded,
Aberdeen have been at their strongest for decades and Hearts demolished the Championship last Season.
On top of that we lost our Cemtal Defence in the window and have been forced to make changes nearly every game due to injuries across the back line.
The bottom line is We have started stronge in our Second Season under Deila than we did under Lennon.
Yet I head no push for his removal at the time (rightly so btw).
It’s not the levels that have dropped on the Park that is the issue here bud it’s the level of expectation that has of it.
One great Season in the Chamopions League in 5 and we have fans thinking we are the dogs bollocks.
We aren’t we never were the stars aligned for one Season in 5.
I personally think RD’s season will revolve around the Europa league campaign if he fails to qualify then I think yir mans oot the door, if he does go take that imposter John Collins with him.
I don’t like the system of football(1 up front) very negative for me to play this system we require a better quality of player in most positions.
Never let the stats get in the way of the truth , RD is a better coach , manager than Kenny
Kenny who?
im pretty sure he meant Lenny lol
last night was a good win, it was always going to be a tough and physical game and lets not forget we lost our captain before the game started and we showed character to win.
i think the position of Bolton answers any questions about who is better.
lets just keep winning games and maybe for a change not have a dig at Ronny
H H
HH to that note Johan has bailed out too.
Fraz,
RD has it all to prove as a Celtic manager, he needs to show he can handle the club in Europe for one.
Remember as well, Ronny Deila get’s to do his work without 24 hour Police protection, having bullets and bombs sent to him, and being assaulted on the touchline and facing racism from opposition supporters.
I didn’t want Neil to get the job and his record in cups was not good enough.
However what this man went through just to be the manager of Celtic,he will have my complete respect until my last breath!
WE ARE ALL NEIL LENNON!
He’s proved in his second season he is matching Lennon in the Europa Group stage up to this point.
Lenny got through on a technicality with Sion remember we should have been out 3-1 0n Aggregate without even a win to shout about.
During the Hearts game telecast on Celtic TV, colour commentator Jim Craig made the point that Celtic are far too slow in the build-up due to too many backward and sideways passes. I’ve been hammering this exact point for many months, to anyone who’ll listen.
You may have 95% ball possession in a game, but if the opposing team scores more goals than you in the 5% of the time they have the ball, your dominance in ball possession hasn’t done you a lot of good. GOALS win games, not ball possession!
Celtic are playjng poorly overall (and particularly in European competition) because:-
1) They’re far too slow in building-up and just don’t understand the concept of a “through’ pass. (How many through passes do you see Celtic players make in any given game?)
2) They can’t keep the ball *LOW* and on-target when they do eventually manage to get a shot off through the ruck of opposing players now congesting the penalty area. (Count the number of shots off-target during any game.)
3) Our crosses from the wing (and corners) are as likely to hit the opposite corner flag as they are to land anywhere near a Celtic player. (Count them too!….Shades of Lee Naylor!)
4) Celtic players consistently “ballwatch” when opposing teams crosses come into the Celtic penalty area. (How many ‘goals against’ have come from opposing teams crosses/corners while Celtics defenders are rooted to the spot?)
Rather than continually pontificating about teamwork, professionalism, attitude and hard work etc., Deila needs to stop blethering endless pablum and get back to basics by teaching his players the benefits of fast breaks, building-up quickly, making a through pass, placing an accurate cross, keeping shots *LOW* and on-target, AND how to defend properly against crosses/corners — because his existing ‘system’ sure ain’t working!
Exact comments I make to fellow Tim’s when watching every game! I’m certain we have got a very good team in there. YNWA.
I’d say the best way to gauge whether we are progressing is by comparing this season with last season. I can’t quite fathom how Lennon’s second season tells us if Ronny is improving the team?
So last season we got kicked out the CL at qualifiers.
Same this season
Result = no progress
Last season we qualified from the EL group.
Reserve judgement on this season, but not looking good
Result = standing still will be difficult, never mind progress.
It is too early to judge domestic progress, but from a European perspective I would say there has been no progress under Ronny at all, indeed I would suggest that we’ve gone backwards.
The data is there to see and the comparison for Delia and Lennon is slightly favorable to Delia. That is a fact. Some of us will dislike that and others will use it as evidence of progress on a straight comparison of two Celtic managers in their second season with the club. I think the data is close enough to suggest that there is little difference between the two managers results and both sets of stats are good reading. Would be nice to see the European stats show more wins and the next games against Molde and Ajax at Celtic park will tell us a lot. I think we have pro Delai and anti Delia sentiments going strong on here and despite the data that will continue as a matter of opinion.
what happened to my earlier post? It wasn’t that bad shoorley??
charlie its not about shwoing these sides respect its the manner of our defeats ffs!!! watch the malmo or molde games again!! who cares if we get beat playing well or even trying!! these games where a shambles and a marker for the majority of our performances in europe!!!
I shall say this again it’s down to poor individual errors and players you expect to turn up simply not doing so.
That’s not a Manage issue it’s something the players have to own.
malmo did all they had to in sweden, we where so bad if they needed 5 they would og got it
Charlie you can spout your stats till your blue in the face they mean nothing.Lenny still had thems to deal with along with everything else.Ronnies second year in Europe is no better than last years,untill that improves i will still be critical.Loved last night though.H.H.
Agree with bgbhoy and Mike here.
Nobody is spouting stats I’m merely presenting them as FACTS.
Choosing to ignore them does not make them go away bud.
Make of them as you will but I can see Deila does not deserve the shit he is getting from some right now.
Charlie i admire your loyalty to Ronnie ,my concern is his rigidity in his tactics ,the Malmo manager Heride suggested that he had a better team .Idispute that,only Rosenberg was superior.Ronnies tactics were frankly wrong same against Moulde,he did not adjust them when ahead at parkhead or change them against Moulde.Ibeleive both managers new what to expect and adjusted to counter.Ibeleive that a more experianced manager would have got us through to the Champions League,
One reason Malmo, Legia, Maribor and Molde can beat better and richer teams (like us) is that their players and teams have gelled over the years. Likewise, their managers (most of them) were allowed to put together and mould a team, playing together as a team. Ronny has done and will do well enough to bring young Scottish talent through the ranks: Armstrong, Mackay-Steven, Christie, Allan, Tierney, Forrest etc. He is now getting his own players in.
Ronny is learning in Europe but is still winning at home. Provided Ronny wins the league the only way our young players can learn in Europe is the hard way, on slippery pitches against savvy teams. If Ronny is given 3-5 years, you will see what can be done with a young manager with young players and a team that gels over 3, 4 or 5 seasons. It took over 3 years for Big Jock to get the team he wanted playing the way he wanted.
Malmo and Molde were not expensive teams but they were canny and savvy and much better than the MSM make out.
Ronny has vision and there will be setbacks along the way.
Lenny was a wonderful leader and as brave a man as ever endured bigotry and bomb threats.
I’m grateful Ronny can go about his job without all that shite going on.
When the lynch mob closes in on Ronny, I won’t be any part of it. Give the man time and respect. If he hasn’t earned it yet, he will.
He is no haddie like Mowbray and deserves to be given time: 3-5 years.
MON and Lenny left of their own accord. Ronny wants to be part of Celtic.
I like Charlie Saiz stats because they help cut through all the hysteria.
It would be a big shame if Ronny is driven out of Paradise without a fair hearing. That is not the Celtic way. Some of us and almost all our parents and grandparents know about not being given a fair hearing because of where they came from or what religion they had.
Next, Aberdeen, but more on that later.
Devoy great post give ronny time and he will deliver hail hail
I second that Devoy.
HH
DELUDED THATS ALL I HAVE TO SAY.
You should really expand on that bud who is and what about?
just my thought on your article comparing both seasons we are a pale imitation of that team and the ronnie results are flattering due to mitigating factors ie.i weaker competition domestically, I still can not get over maribor, malmo and molde, in my eyes we are gone a few steps back,
It’s the only comparison we can make seeing as both are victims of the same policy currently being deployed by the Club.
To say it is an easier League is a severe generalisation in my opinion seeing as Rangers were imploding and the current Aberdeen side would have battered Motherwell most weeks.
There are more teams playing on the deck now than they were pre implosion too making for better games.
All I have heard since last week is the European Form well compre both Managers second Seasons (in the thread) and you will see barring a by through Sion being done for breaking registration rules we would have been out on our arse with a 3-1 defeat.
Legia Warsaw.
I do not think this league has got better ,we are strolling through games,and when we meet a team with better players and better organised in the European competitions the manager and the team are found out.
Corktim…canny get over Maribor, malmo and molde??? Hope for yoursake pal you weren’t around in the 90’s. Now that was buken HORRENDOUS!!
Yeah was around in the 90s,maybe spoiled-by champion league nights and great victories ,but I want us to be competing at this level but been kept back by the board and in my eyes not all his fault may I add,but I do not think Ronnies is the man to bring us to the champions league,since the qualifying has been regionalised we are failing against weaker teams
The way the team play is at one speed there are no other gears.
Again last night a stupid goal lost as the team played at statues.
If we could defend set pieces, we would still be in the Champions League and cruising Scottish football.
Our defence last year really was Denayer, a quality player.
They should beg Mjallby to return to organise our static defence, then we might see a better Celtic.
Hearts last night tried to imitate Molde, who play break away football.
The jury is still out on Delia, but Collins should be shown the door with JPK if they are responsible for our crude abject defence.
I agree on the Mjalby thing I think he would come back if approached.
We lost Denaayer and Van Dijk from Central defence they broke a 96 year League record last Season with the same Manager deploying the same tactics.
Now when you consider Lenny had a more settled side,knew the club inside out and had his own coaches under him and you then compare both starts to their second season then I fail to see why it is Deila is getting so much shit?
Well I do actually it’s puely down to fans ecpectations shifting because od one very good Season in Lennys 3rd Year at Celtic.
We wee poo in Europe the Season after lucky ..extremely lucky to get past a very very average Shakhter Morton.
We were a bars width and a goal line clearance away from Europa League.
In the end we went into the Champions League and finished with our lowest points tally in years.
The writin was on the wall then but fans have airbrushed this out of their minds and set the bar at the Previous exploits.
It’s wrong and it is unfair to say the least.
I judge Deila by the Domestic results this is ou bread and butter.
2 trophies in the bag and now with a better start to last Season we know there is plenty room for improvement because we have witnessed better performances from this side.
He needs and deserves the time to get it consistency going again.
Jozo has improved us who knows a return of Mulgrew may also help?.
expectations’
Ive said for ages mulgrew gets unfair stick playing in midfield , he was player of the year at centre back and with the managers style of playing out from the back , charlie is perfect for this role , especially as boyata seems incapable of making a decent pass to a team mate. Charlie since we are stuck with this system what do you think of pushing griffiths out to the left and playing cifti through the middle? Arsenal do this with sanchez. Might be a good way to see the two of them together since ronny wont gowith four four two
I think Griffiths could go out on the right bring Commons/Johansen or Rogic into the 10 slot then let Jamesie/Armstrong/GM-S playout on the left.
That could leave Cifti and Cole as the target men.
That way you have Giffiths cutting in as he did last night from the right and having a dig or cross.
Re Devoy45
If we are going to bring Big Jock into any discussion about RD – which is heresy in my opinion – we should at least be accurate in what we say. Big Jock became manager in April/May 1965 and one year later we lost narrowly to Liverpool in the semi-final of the European Cup Winners Cup. Within another twelve months (May 1967) we had won another 5 trophies including the European Cup (as it was known then). That’s two years, with two or three signings, to sweep all before them. RD has been here for more than half of that time and we are vulnerable every game we play. I have been a fan for more than 60 years and this is a very poor Celtic side.
Europa League comparison:
In pot 4, against teams from Spain, Italy and France. Including that years winners, the next seasons UEFA Super Cup winners and La Liga champions.
Vs
Pot 2, with teams from Holland, Turkey and Norway. Including a team that was banned from Europe 3 of the last 4 years.
Your kidding on if you think both these groups are equal.
Absolutely correct Doc, my thoughts exactly. No comparison as to the quality of opponent.
Compare the two squads both had available.
Forster……….Gordon
Zaluska……….Bailly
Matthews………Lustig
Cha Du Ri……..Janko
Lustig………..Ambrose
Majstorovic……Boyata
K.Wilson………Simunovic
Loovens……….Mulgrew
Rogne…………Ambrose
Izaguiree……..Izaguirre
Mulgrew……….Blackett
Twardzik………Tierney
Brown…………Brown
Wanyama……….Bitton
Ledley………..Armstrong
Kayal…………Allan
Commons……….Commons
Maloney……….Mackay-Steven
Forrest……….Forrest
Ki……………Rogic
McCourt……….McGregor
Stokes………..Stokes
Hooper………..Griffiths
Samaras……….Ciftci
I know what side I think had more strength in depth and certainly more quality.
I think the current squad, with the exception of the strikers.
I noticed you included players, like Moloney, that were away at the start of the season and excluded guys like, Brozek and Bangura.
Defense wise I would say Lennys edges it.
Midfield definitely Lennys
Attack again Lennys.
I never rated Majstorovic or Wilson and I prefer Lustig and Izzy at FB to Mulgrew and Matthews.
Arguments could be made for both midfields dependent on formation, system, depth, etc.
4-4-2 I would take the 2012 squad, 4-5-1 I would take the current squad.
dhelboy, totally agree. Mulgrew at centre half either with Boyata or Simunovic, or as our first choice sub. Charlie has a good left peg and does get headers now and then. He performs much better as Centre Back. Likewise, I’ve always fancied Griffiths wide left (of our front three) and another striker (Ciftci) up front. I’m beginning to lose faith in Ciftci but he needs regular appearances to show what he can do. Spot on. That way Ronny can keep his precious 4-2-3-1. Whatever your/our views on Ronny, we can agree he is one stubborn Norwegian cunt.
Mulgrew at centre back an option but should not be viewed as a permanent fix,it’s our zonal marking is fucking us at the back.simunovic and boyata will progress to a good partnership we we change to man to manmarking
If we change
Lol he is that , yeah cifti is one of these guys that needs to play every week i think , charlie where are yoy fitting cole in with cifti its only one up front
You can’t play them all at once mate rotate them keep them all fresh.
We can’t expect to turn up and wallop the opposition every week, every team has peaks and troughs. We win the games that we don’t play sublime in, and when the back four settles in the second half of the season then we’ll do even better. We lost both centre backs and a solid full back in Matthews, that would affect any team. Big van cost us the champions league though, lost his head for the second goal at park head and left his zone, similar poor defending cost us in the second game, he was a quality player no doubt but without the level of concentration needed to be a star. Ronny and the team have brought the best out of the likes of Griffiths, Denyer, Virgil, bitton and will do the same with gms, Armstrong and tierney, it’s disappointing not to be in the CL but to believe that Lenny had the team playing at their peak for more games is guff, his resources were much more than ronnies and he had the tendency to spend money and write players off quickly, shame he couldn’t run the rule as quickly before buying them. Ronnie has the brains and the drive, we’ll smash Aberdeen at the weekend and spank molded at home, three goals clear against both.
Totally agree all sides experience dips in form.
That is exaggerated even more when 4 or 5 of your key players simply don’t turn up and put the shift in you know they can and have.
Molde was a prime example of that.
Lustig Izzy Brown Armstrong Johansen even Griffiths on the night were well below par.
I get what people say about our side costing more to build than these sides but the fact of the matter is we are still not buying quality individuals at Celtic they are not way ahead in terms of technical ability by comparison.
The margins between winning and losing can be fine in Europe the reason being you are coming up against sides who are not only organised but also not short of passion or ability either.
Molde went to Fenerbache and scored 3 goals they are no mugs and that would be a result most Celtic fans would be proud of given the side Fenerbache have.
Alot has been been made of the System well that System went qarabag and got a great result.
It also dragged us back from 2-0 down against an Inter side who cost 10 times what we paid our side.
Individual errors,the loss of our Central Pairing,the collective form of the defence as it has chopped and changed all season have certainly not helped our cause in Europe but as you can see from above we are still in all 4 Competitions and at least able to improve on what we have already seen.
The introduction on Jozo to the defence has already had an affect we don’t know how good he is yet but the early signs are promising.
Chuck Mulgrew into the equation and then we might just eradicate some of the errors already witnessed?
But o be calling for a Managers head this early as we sit at the top of the table on the cusp of going a possible 7 points clear at the weekend I really don’t get the mentality of some of our fans.
Wow, jbhoy. “Three clear goals clear against both” Have you been nicking tablets out of my meds cabinet? Likewise, reading my tea leaves I think we will beat Aberdeen with some difficulty and Molde with lots of difficulty.It’s the right time for this team to go up a gear or two.
I agree Devoy if we can eradicate the defensive lapses then we should be in a position to win both.
Provided our key men do their job and put a shift in that is.
3 Clear goals against both, Griffiths is on fire and the defense will not be troubled by Aberdeen or Molde whom were awful to be honest. Aberdeen will be too frightened to play, confidence is low and we’ll take advantage. Molde were terrible at the back, they were so bad we lapsed and took it easy, the same wont happen again. 3 goals is optimistic, its easy to see how we could do it, with the team spirit we have they wont like the press comments and will come out and prove it