Before the game last night, there was quite a heated discussion on BBC Radio Scotlands Sports-sound show on the Celtic loannee approach, Tom English was asking what was the point and was it having a bad impact on promotion from within and folk like Peter Houston and Pakki Bonner were talking of the benefits and the expectations from bringing in expensive ( in transfer value) loannees in short term deals. The impact on the Scottish game was also discussed with comparisons of Ryan Christie and Lewis Morgan having to leave Celtic to get game time being raised and asking who does this benefit in the long run..the clubs, players, everyone, no-one.
Eventually host Richard Gordon called an end to it but it was a good listen and no quarter was being given by anyone so it wasnt just paying lip service to fill the time.
I duly headed for the game and then suffered like the rest of us.
One of the post match thoughts that kept filling my head was “Why didn’t we start Edouard up front?”. My reasoning being he is our player and a natural centre, unlike Burke who is a loanee winger we are trying to help convert to play through the middle. I could only surmise Edouard still isn’t fit but even then I asked “Why doesn’t Brendan get what he can out of Edouard from the start then swap hin out?”. Brendan does seem to prefer going with the alternative first rather than last judging by recent games.
Please do not think Im in any way anti Olly Burke. I think hes a great player and has been very good for us…but ( you know there was a but)….how can Brendan Rodgers demand his Celtic players “have to learn how to play in Europe” if he doesn’t ensure he plays them as often together as possible? At present Olly Burke is 99% certain not to be here next season. Same also goes for Timo Weah, who whilst a great talent, is keeping other Celts like Mikey Johnston from getting experience at the highest level. Again, how does Mikey Johnston learn if he gets overlooked for a 5 month loannee player?
We have constantly berated the signing policy and process at Celtic Park but being specific, I think its time we ask if theres any point in Loanees apart from an emergency ( dont tell me needing 2 strikers was an emergency when we only started the season with 2 ..that was self inflicted stupidity!). This is nothing against the guys we have on loan, or previous talents like Paddy Roberts. They may be nice to look at, but long term, its an ever decreasing circle and eventually its all going to come crashing down.
There is another way of course, sadly however with the Board demands for profits ( that currently seem to go nowhere bar the bank!) and the fans demand for 10 in a row, then its doubtful we will try it, least not for a few years yet..imagine, imagine this…imagine we actually went full in on promoting Celtic youth?
Lets take 2 clubs from smaller leagues in Northern Europe, both with a true football pedigree but with smaller finances in this modern football age.
Lets consider how they have prospered in taking alternative approach in recent years –
Lets play Celtic vs Ajax…whos worth more?
Approach: Loannees and Player Sales
Celtic Squad Budget value : 91,45 Mill. €
Approach: Promote from Within
Amsterdam Squad Budget – 368,75 Mill. €
Thats right, Ajax’s squad is valued at 3 times our own.
Couple of questions..
- Can you name the Ajax Manager?
- Can you name many Ajax Players?
- Can you name the Ajax Chairman?
If money is the be all and end all, which seems to be our Boards aim, then the figures above would make poor reading.
A final footballing thought….just compare our current loanee approach that was numbed so easily the other night against a La Liga side in Valencia, with this note from our old friend Daniel Storey on Football365 regards Ajax vs Real Madrid
Ajax had 19 shots and almost double Real Madrid’s number of efforts on target. They are unfortunate that they faced the European champions and the European champions of getting it done.
Still, take a moment to appreciate Ajax’s bright new future. Even if it does end in a raft of expensive exports, that is how a club like Ajax must flourish. Develop, sculpt, sell and reinvest. Their matchday squad on Tuesday contained seven players aged 21, one aged 22 and another aged 19. De toekomst is helder.
Desi listened to the same broadcast which was quite
good even if they didn’t know what position Valencia were in their own league which made me think they hadn’t bothered to do any preparation. Before our game I thought we had a good combination of loanees, guys who had come from our academy (Forrest, McGregor, Johnston and Tierney) good Scottish acquisitions( Brown, Bain,Christie) and buts ( Sinclair, Izzy, Boyata and Simunovic).After the game I just don’t know where we are going.So what is your argument, why do talented young players happily put themselves into the Ajax Academy but not Celtic’s and I don’t mean talented Scottish players? Is that just not our strategy at that level, we wait until they come through somewhere else and try to buy with a view to selling. Do you know we were after Benkovic two years ago at a couple of hundred thousand and didn’t complete.
Pakki ?
The bottom line is the the team that played Vakencia isnt the team that qualified. Loannees will get us to 8, which is importan, but after that we’re back to square one.
Ralph, I’ve stated this many times on the site and have been berated for it. I get that it’s difficult to attract players of a certain calibre to Scotland particularly when there are financial offers that can set players up for life on offer elsewhere. In my opinion the ” custodians ” need to deviate slightly in financial terms and try and lure some quality to CP, we’ve got a lot to offer as a club.
It’s ALL down to the scouting system (or the lack thereof).
Our planet is FULL of young, skillfull, determined, budding footballers. The PISH about anyone not wanting to join us because it’s too fucking cold, we don’t pay enough, et cetera is just that, PISH.
In Scotland alone, but also in most countries, we have layers and layers of footballing talent. Many of whom would fucking die for the chance of pulling on The Hoops. Maybe we can’t see the wood for the trees?
Any player, with the pre-requisite of proven talent, who’s a TIM by heart and nature should be brought in, coached and all.
Also to be given a fucking fighting chance.
Anthony Ralston springs to my mind. He could be a top player for us. Brendan fucked with his head by bringing him on against Neyheart and then, stunningly, dropping him when he’d performed admirably? Aye, oor Monti disnae ‘get’ much of this, ken?, tactics’n’at.
Well, I’m just saying that Brendan has a Monti in him; neither understands “tactics” 🙂
HH
The bottom line is Rodgers isnt going to do (and hasnt done) anywhere near as good as lennon in Europe. That was another embarassing display and there plento more to come. Just not this season. Lennon was operating in Scotsville and managed some pretty decent results. Thing is Lennon told them to fuck off when he was told lawell and co would be signing all the players from now on. To have the money we have got in the fucking bank doing fuck all is shocking for a team of celtics size. This has got nothing to do with loanee signings.
I agree that Edouard should be our main man up front .I can only assume Brendan didn’t want to rush him back . Maybe he thinks Sunday has greater priority?
Do not get the mindset, if we had gone with John McGinn they would have shipped out Christie to ABZ for a small transfer fee, when he had been outstanding for them on his loan spell
Patrick Roberts was outstanding, where is he now?
Cartvale, PR7 is in Girona, Spain recovering from injury. If reports are accurate, the reason he isn’t wearing the Hoops this season is because Man City backed out of selling him to us at the last minute. They probably wanted to see if they can get a better price from an EPL team in Jan (not knowing he’d be crocked during the window) or this summer.
I do think the club will make another run at PR7 this summer, and given how his season has gone, I find it difficult to imagine that his market value will be higher than what we were offering last summer. He’ll have 1 year left on his contract, so this summer will be the last time City will be able to sell him for a profit before he gets to sign a pre-contract Bosman next Jan. The question is whether he’ll want to come back when we have Forrest and Sheved under contract and also making attractive glances at Burke. I suspect he may want to try his luck at a middling EPL club where he would be more assured of playing every week and would also likely make more money. But we shall see…
I don’t think anyone can seriously argue that we don’t give our youth players the opportunity to be promoted and play significant minutes to the young players we have developed internally or signed as development projects from other clubs (including Christie, Simunovic, & Scott Bain in this group).
I would also take those squad values with a pinch of salt for a couple reasons:
(1) a lot of Ajax’s players seem to have increased in ‘market value’ exponentially shortly after signing for them. This seems to be a case of changing perceptions more than anything, and the fact that our signings aren’t getting that benefit in Transfermarkt’s calculations doesn’t change their actual market value to Celtic (or other clubs!) any more than inflated figures do for Ajax.
(2) a lot of Ajax’s players have never been involved in a transfer and the projected value is nothing more than an educated guess. The values being reported on that website are perhaps more reliable than the totally fictional values in Football Manager, but they shouldn’t be taken as gospel. Particularly in cases where there’s no actual transfer history for a player.
The only way we can develop in Europe is to bring through our own players. I think last season Ajax didn’t qualify for any European football.This season the did well in the CL and 2 seasons ago they got to the Europa league final.
They di bring through better players than us though.
They say “there is a first time for everything” well this is it for me,i’ve got to agree with Tom English,there is no point taking in as many loanees,developing them and sending them back to their clubs better players.Burke looks like he will get us goals but wouldn’t Johnstone and Aitchison,not do the same?When is the next Tierney,Kennedey,White,Aitken or Gemmell goingto come through the ranks?
We should be seeing Okoflex and Karamoko Dembele soon. Would not be surprised if we see Dembele in the coming weeks after he turns 16 later this month.
But look, I do think there is a place for loan signings in the squad if there’s a legitimate reason. In my mind, those reasons are:
(1) short term loans to provide cover for longer term injuries. Bringing in Weah to cover for Griff made a lot of sense, as did bringing in Burke to cover for Arzani. Playing Weah and Burke ahead of other guys is a legitimate question though, but this is a results business, and BR is trying to win another treble as well as advance in Europa.
(2) bringing in quality loan players that are of higher quality than we could otherwise afford to buy in the transfer market or develop internally. Benkovic and PR7 fall into this category.
(3) it can also help to use loans in the overall context of squad building and maintaining a sensible budget. Case in point: we have 4-5 defenders we’ll need to acquire this summer. If our budget is £20m (or £10m or whatever – same principal applies), we can either spend £5m each on 4 players, or we can spend £9m on two players each and then another £1m each for two loan players. If those £1m loan players are better than what we could get for £5m permanently, then we are far better off going that route as all 4 incoming players would be better than simply spending £5m on each player.
I for one think everyone at the club would prefer to buy cheap players and develop them into 1st team starters. Or just use our own development squad. But not everyone is going to turn out like Christie or Bain in the former case or like KT and McGreggor in the later case. We don’t have a quality LB to provide cover for KT internally right now, and there’s nobody at the club that will be able to replace Boyata & Simunovic either when they leave this summer. With any luck, the two American’s we just signed will turn into quality players for us on the wings – Gutman on the left and Manny Perez on the right. Realistically they’re a couple years away from being able to a job for us in Europe though, so that still leaves us needing to bring in other players this summer.
Maybe I’m being naive, but I actually trust those at the club to make these sorts of decisions regarding loan vs buy vs promoting the youth players. They have a limited budget to work with, and I absolutely think loan signings should be considered and used under the right circumstances.
Benjamin, I was aware where Roberts is today, my point is what did his loan add to the future.
We are a big fish in a small pond, but bringing in loan players is a short term fix.
The board look for cheap options Ronnie Delia being a case in point, they have stood still whilst Sevco were in. The lower divisions and there appears to be no plan, except the return of the so called Old Firm
This is a foolish stance as Celtic need European football to have any creability. BR, Lenny and Chesney have done well considering the board and its operation since MON left.
Everything we do is World Class according to Liewell, he is only interested in the infrastructure, but at least we will have a nice museum then a hotel to get a drink, parochial
“Bringing in Burke to cover for Arzani. “ is a perfect way of summing up our planning..a loan to cover a loan.
If we wish to rebuild every year ( and at the last minute no doubt) rather than one big sale every 18 months then we must, and i include Brendan, accept is the side will never gain the experience needed to grow and develop as a true European side.
We know Boyata is leaving in summer..lets get the Ajer + One partnership playing at the back as much as we can..in fact when games 2 or 3 up then I hope Brendan can look beyond throwing loanees.
Lets see young Celts develop in Hoops please
The hard facts relating to loan and home grown players . If Brendan does not give the loanees adequately playing time , then parent club will either call them back or will be unlikely to deal with us in the future . Unfortunately in this economic climate , not many Scottish clubs have the resources to develop young players , unlike when we had a reserve league. I include our own club to a certain degree , how many players have we ourselves loaned out for game time , experience and evaluation.
AS stated previously the disadvantages to home grown players , in contrast the loanees are “Try before you buy” conditional on parent club willing to sell.
Whether we like this or not this would appear to be the accepted “norm”.
Just been announced that not enough of ‘the people’ took up Daves offer , so he is in the clear.
No need to buy anyones shares , after diluting them.
Takeover panel have been steamrollered , lessons learned.
Aye right.
DK’s a despicable character but he does know how to beat the system and stay out of jail. Takeover panel proved to be absolutely toothless. Only big Mike seems to have his measure
So, yet another FANtastic comment fucking disappears?
Arseholes like Weered Walloper, Mike the fermer and Monti ‘close but no cigar’ will be ‘heard’?
Fuck this.
Like me or loathe me, this fuckin’ site will be diminished, just as many of my musical chords often are.
Aye, FUCK THIS.
TicToc,
Ssssshhhhhhhhhhh
Oh and, er, just as a digestif (a sort of drink-oriented Nota Bene) I consider this. Triple sec.
It may refer to a triple-distilled drink like Wodka 155.
It may refer to a Champagne, or even a Prosecco in terms of triple-dry.
OR it may apply to 3 fucking clowns who contact each other privately but spout on here whilst pretending to be individuals; triple-SECtioned?
Well cop for this, fannies, Ha Ha Ha, one a piece.
PS The fermer’s too auld, the Walloper’s a waster, but ah could mibbaes fit the other cunt in….but he’d probably gulp!
He’s done it on here before now. Adam’s apple?
Fuck religion, the sooner you wake up the better.
There’s aboot a dozen different wans, wi’ a hundred fuckin’ different sects, an’ they’re a’ fuckin’ claimin’ “the one true faith”. Well, fuck me,ah’m a bit styoopit oan ma blind-side, but religion? Naw, ah’m no’ THAT fuckin’ styoopit.
HH
PAX Vobiscum Vinny with the emphases on the last four letters.
SCIAF: The Scottish CATHOLIC International Aid Fund. Raising millions of pounds EVERY year for over-sea’s aid, working their balls off to help end poverty in Africa: Helping people in Ethiopia, South Sudan and Malawi, providing food for the desperately hungry, providing safe clean water to drink. The wee box appeal £3.4 million raised in emergency aid, ordinary Scottish Catholics doing everything they can EVERY YEAR, to help alleviate poverty, feeding the poor and hungry, that is over and above the homeless and hungry here in Scotland. My favourite is.. The gift of a goat, every penny raised gives a goat to farmers in Africa, now, where can I find a goat? not too far I think.
CAFOD: THE CATHOLIC AGENCY FOR OVERSEAS DEVELOPMENT. The English version of SCIAF Reaching out to people in poverty, whatever their religion or culture. I could go on and on and on describing the good works, the generosity of ordinary kind hearted Catholics, they deserve better than to be castigated by the goats of this World.
Mike, typical pish, and I wasn’t singling out Catholicism as you do. The whole fucking lot of religions are divisive AT BEST.
You CHOOSE selective ‘good deeds’ by Catholics.
How about offering birth control in Africa to avoid the need to help the starving children? Oh, sorry, how un-Catholic of me!
Get a fucking grip and DO NOT DARE to lecture me on a ‘faith’ I rejected after being fucking near brainwashed by it.
HH the Celtic FC, not the PLC, and FUCK ALL religions as they do FUCK ALL for humanity, despite what you think you believe.
Vinny, Its not pish, all of it is true, its well documented, if you care to seek it out. I chose to highlight Catholicism as its the only religion that I have had life experience off, I would not talk about something that I had no knowledge of, just as I would not berate or criticise it. Why would the Catholic church introduce birth control in Africa when it is against its teachings, rightly or wrongly that is its fundamental belief. People are free to believe whatever they choose to believe, or not. All I can say is that in all my years of going to church, all I ever heard was to love your fellow man or woman, mind you its a stretch trying to love you. Find a tall mirror, try a bit of self examination, forget the large multi layered chips on you shoulders, seek help, try not to feel superior, embrace your fellow man, try to be more self effacing, try not to be so angry. Something happened in your life that hurt you and has made you act like a wean, perhaps you felt rejected. There are three Vincent’s the Grandfather and husband who loves his family, there is Vincent the egotist who comes across as a self lover ( I think that is just a cover for someone who is self protecting) inside that body frame there is someone who is a decent human being, find the real Vincent. R.C. not P.C.
Well, thank fuck for that!
I can now go forward in life with confidence, knowing that I’ve been ‘analysed’ by a Catholic.
Oh, wait………..
FC not PLC and my thanks to the guy/gal whom originally coined it.
PS Mike, I’m pretty sure you’re a good guy. I REALLY don’t want to fall out with you about our respective beliefs. I don’t really want to fall out with anyone on here. I’ve, rightly or wrongly, been fucking hammered on here, and it’s no big deal to me. Reading between lines, I’m pretty cool with my own observations and conclusions. Stood at a bar, you, me, Monti and Weered, for example, would have a good laugh; we’d rip the pish out of each other’s comments on here as I hope most viewers do anyway.
I’ve often made this point, or similar. The one-dimensional language of the internet is far worse than the two-dimensional ‘product’ of TV which is NO comparison to the 3-D experience of being there. Between dimensions, much is lost and little gained.
I was laying off of here a bit but was nearly tempted to ask Monti to ensure he got to the game on Thursday night; by his own admission he doesn’t get to that many games but his last one, 5-0 with fabulous play from The Bhoys, was an experience I wanted all of us to share on Thursday.
Finally, I’m okay with Europe being over for another year.
Here WE (all) go, Eight 8 in a row.
The courts WONT dispense justice to the animal scum, but The Celtic can and will.
HH
Who missed the penalty(s) at Ibrox then?
Sadly, there’ll be a few wives waking up with black eyes tomorrow in loyalist Ayrshire.
Loanees to me should be to cover for short term absences or if a club can’t afford permanent signings.
Neither of these apply to us, apart from perhaps Griffiths, although sadly even that may be a permanent absence.
I’m also not sure of the economic sense of signing loanees at £1-2m a year, as opposed to a good quality permanent signing at £5-10m.
Over a 5 year period the outlay is the same but what you get is vastly different.
If the player turns out to be a disaster then you’re quids in with the former, as there’s less cost in terminating them.
On the other hand, if its a success then the signed player has years to improve in the team, as opposed to the loanee who leaves and then its back to gambling with the next one.
I just think that the board is ‘risk averse’ and short term, which isn’t good in a football environment.
getting a loanee in with a view to buy makes perfect sense. Then if they are minging (like about 80% of our signings in the last few seasins are) they can be told to fuck off.
Benkovic, Weah and probably Burke don’t fall into that category.
Sometimes you just have to take the risk because if someone comes in and tears it up then he won’t be signing permanently.
If Dembele was signed on loan then he would have left for nothing,
read my post again. I was on topic with the loanee topic and gave a third option you missed. The most important one. I Never rules out permanent signings
weah is there because we can afford pemanent signings of that quality and Benkovic is cover for short term absence. Then again maybe we are going to spend another two years with no centre half.
i am always in favour of improving our current signing policy. That would be for celtic btw
All options that improve on the current shambles are acceptable.
https://youtu.be/it1GV_7VTIs
Desi Mond, you said something about the players learning in Europe:Here’s a major revelation: Brendan always blames his players and says they need to learn from their defeats but he never blames himself and says he needs to learn. He always says the step up in Europe is difficult as they have better players. This is true but why doesn’t he say “it’s not a league campaign, it’s a knockout over two games. They might be more expensive and more skillful but anything can happen in football in knockout games, it all depends on tactics. We’ve studied other “small” teams who’ve done well against “big” teams and this is what works…”
lawell?
Out!
After a bright start, the last 30 minutes of the first half have been brutal!!