Contributor The Doc gives his thoughts on the current state of our club, its board and its relationship with the support :
Celtic – The Line in the Sand is Nigh
I started going to watch Celtic with my dad around about 1965-66, the start of possibly the greatest era in Celtic’s history.
When I became a teenager, I no longer wanted to go with my dad and instead started to go to CP with my mates from the scheme. Being teenagers, we wanted to be seen and be heard. We were loud and we were quite happy annoying people from the older generation, particularly those in authority. Every other Saturday the adrenaline was flowing, the excitement of the Celtic experience was one to be savoured.
Once inside CP we would generally stand behind the goals at the Celtic end, able to take in the noise and excitement form the fans behind us. In those days it was not unusual for fights to kick off and that just added to the level of excitement.
As I got older, I started to go into the Jungle and this became my usual standing place up until CP was redeveloped.
It was in the Jungle that I learnt the rebel songs, the ones that are now so frowned upon by the PLC, as I had no exposure to them in the house .The rebel songs were sung loud and long, as this was our heritage, the Irish background that separated us from the other teams in Scotland. These were the days when every application for a job asked you which school you had attended, a way some employers used to ensure Catholics wouldn’t be employed. The songs were our way of rebelling, our answer to the sectarian abuse we received everywhere we went in Scotland (it’s not just the West of Scotland that has a problem with sectarianism), our way of sticking 2 fingers up to authority. We knew they classed us as second class citizens and we knew how much they hated the songs.
How many of the Celtic fans who started following the team in the 60’s / 70’s had a similar rite of passage?.
How many learnt and sang the rebel songs in the Jungle or the back of the Celtic end?. How many of us behaved in a manner then which would be frowned upon today?
When we moved back to CP after the redevelopment I got a parent & child seat in the front stand. My son was happy there until he turned 14 or 15 and then wanted to move up to the top of the Jock Stein stand where his mates sat and where there was singing and chanting. So I got him a seat there.
His child seat was passed on to my younger son and he sat with me quite happily until he also turned 14 or 15 and spent as much time watching the crowd as he did the football. I then managed to get him a ticket in 112, next to the Green Brigade.
His child seat then passed to my youngest son, but he also wanted to move to 112 to be near the noise and excitement of the Green Brigade, so I managed to get him a ticket in 112 as well.
On Champions League nights, my middle son likes to go to the game with his mates. They want to get the train, to go into town first, experience the build up, feel the excitement growing and get the adrenaline flowing. He’s too grown up to take his younger brother with him, so I’m left with that honour. So on CL nights I walk my youngest round to his turnstiles and wait with him until he’s in before going to my seat in the front stand.
As I have been stood there waiting, I have witnessed an unbelievable level of harassment towards our young fans entering 111/ 112 from police and stewards alike. Youths approaching the gates being stopped by police for no reason other than they were youths and were intent on entering 111 / 112 – why the harassment?
On one occasion, after having seen my son into the ground safely, I headed to the front stand and passed a steward standing adjacent to the police control box with arms spread-eagled in a crucifix stance holding a green and white flag that had some Arabic looking writing on it. I asked him what he was doing and he said they had taken the flag off a couple of guys and he was holding it up to the control room so that they could get someone to translate the wording in order to determine if it was illegal. Meanwhile the owners of the flag were held outside until their fate was decided. The game had either started or was just about to start so the owners would have missed the start of the game. Whatever happened to the premise of being innocent until proven guilty?
Why were the police and stewards so determined to criminalise someone when they didn’t know if a crime had taken place ? Imagine being stopped by the police as you walked home from a shopping trip and asked to empty your pockets / bag just so they could see if you had done something wrong –it wouldn’t happen, would it, so why were the owners of the flag treated this way?
The stewards on my turnstiles couldn’t be any more helpful / sociable. There are rarely if ever police at the turnstiles and when they are there, nobody is stopped unless they are doing something wrong. On one of the CL nights I took in a bag of books for one of my mates and when the policeman asked me what I had I said jokingly it was my carry out and was told to make sure I kept one for him. Can you imagine that happening at 111 / 112?
What is the difference between my turnstiles and the turnstiles at 111/ 112? Are the only potential trouble makers in 111 /112?
My adult son goes to all the away games. He and his mates had tickets for the Motherwell game in the section immediately in front of the GB, the section that was vandalised. When he arrived at the game his seats were already taken. He asked a steward to sort this out and was told to just find a seat and sit anywhere.
The section was badly overcrowded as due to the lack of stewarding, all the young ones had headed there in order to be near the GB. The first damaged seats were caused by the crowd surging forward in an overcrowded section when Celtic scored. Thereafter there was wanton damage by some Neds and this is completely unacceptable – I hope the culprits are identified and treated accordingly. However, the situation was exacerbated by the stewards and police not doing their jobs properly. Why weren’t fans made to go to their own seats?. Why was the section allowed to become overcrowded and dangerous?
Next day the PLC laid the blame squarely on the GB. They were all suspended and the section disbanded.
Once again what happened to being innocent until proven guilty?
Subsequently it transpired that none of the GB were involved, but the PLC had already hung the GB out to dry – why?
The PLC were quick to feed the Scottish media with stories about what the GB were doing to the club and what they intended doing to them. Why, when it was discovered that the GB wasn’t to blame, was there no retraction?
Why didn’t the PLC take Motherwell to task for their poor stewarding?
Why haven’t the SPL taken Motherwell to task for their poor stewarding?
This follows on from the mythical Dundee riot. I have spoken to fans who were there and have told me that there was no riot. We’ve probably all read reports from fans, some on here, that there was no riot.
There was a lot of drunken youths and I am led to believe, there was one skirmish, which appeared to be between two youths continuing a feud from their scheme and nothing to do with Celtic.
The numbers of arrests, four, of whom at least one was a Dundee fan, would attest to the fact that there was no riot and that there were no” scenes similar to the worst of the football hooliganism of the 70’s”.
But once again the GB were hung out to dry by the PLC – why?
And why were the media given the ammunition to fire at us from the PLC?
The CL game against Milan and the GB are pilloried, by the PLC once again, for having a political banner. The next round of games and UEFA order that before the games start, every team has to display a banner honouring Nelson Mandela’s life. I am very much pro Nelson Mandela, but he was a politician, so the banners were political – why did the PLC accept the fine so readily? Why not fight the fine and defend the GB? We won’t even mention the fact that Nelson Mandela was seen as a terrorist by Western governments before apartheid ended.
As far as I’m aware, Barcelona still play the Catalan Hymn at the end of each match, this is as political a song as you can get, so why haven’t they been brought to bear for this?
We’ve also had the incident with the fireworks being let off at a CL game – the GB got the blame even though they denied it had anything to do with them. Everyone knows the scrutiny that the GB are under from CCTV and from the police wearing cameras, if they had let off the firework do you not imagine they would have been caught?
Why then was the PLC so quick to blame them?
The F@@@ UEFA banner that we got fined for – almost every ULTRA group in Europe have raised a similar banner – you can find the evidence easily on the internet – why are Celtic the only team (I’m aware of) that have been fined for this? Why didn’t the PLC point out all the other team’s displays – if they did, why were we fined and why then has nobody else been fined – why were the PLC happy to let the GB to be painted in a bad light once again?
Why have the PLC given out names and addresses of members of the GB to the police, surely this is an offence under the Data Protection Act unless a criminal act has taken place? I don’t know how many members of the GB have been convicted of crimes, but don’t believe that police have only been given names and addresses when a criminal investigation is ongoing.
And why are arrests carried out at dawn, why not during the day / evening and why are the media always on hand to capture the moment? Who is alerting the media? What part have the PLC in all of this?
To me it appears that the PLC have an agenda against the GB – why?
Has the PLC been promised entry into one of the English leagues if it rids the support of its Irish political rebellion? If this is the reason, why not tell us, if it’s not, tell us what the real reason is. I’ve reached this conclusion on the basis of how quickly and how often the PLC have condemned the GB recently, mostly unfairly. It would appear that the PLC are trying to blacken the GB’s name to the other supporters. The PLC seem to be happy to point the finger at the GB for all its transgressions in order to set the rest of the supporters against them – why?
The PLC have been happy to profit from the GB when it suits them – Glasgow’s Green & White, Just Can’t Get Enough & the Barcelona display are three which come easily to mind, so why try to alienate them?
The PLC are happy to play “Let The People Sing” and “The Fields Of Athenry” both “rebel” songs – why are they acceptable and “Roll Of Honour” and “Boys Of The Old Brigade” aren’t. Are there different levels of acceptability of rebel songs? Surely if rebel songs are wrong, this means all rebel songs and not just certain ones?
I, like many other Celtic fans, have cd’s containing rebel songs in my car that I listen to on the way to the game. I never listen to them in the house, only in the car. Is this acceptable?
How many of the people complaining about the singing of rebel songs at CP also listen to them in their own car / house?
It’s a bit like complaining about pornography on the TV / in magazines whilst having your own stash in the house. If it’s wrong, it’s wrong, you can’t make up the rules to suit yourself, which is what the PLC appear to be doing.
My children all have season tickets, but have missed games for a variety of reasons that I wouldn’t consider missing a game for. When I started going to see Celtic there wasn’t a lot of alternatives on offer and going to the game became a habit. It was where the working classes spent their Saturday afternoons, especially when the pubs closed at 2.30pm. Nowadays the youth are spoiled for choice for what to do with their money and time. If we don’t capture their attention now, we will lose them forever. It’s highly unlikely that someone will suddenly decide to start going to see Celtic when they are in their mid 20’s when they haven’t been in the habit of going up until then. Whilst us old ones are happy to sit on our hands in the Main / Front stand, what happens when we die or become unable to attend games. Who will take our place?
Celtic face the real possibility of losing thousands of season ticket holders at the end of this season. The attendances at CP are embarrassing these days as are the attempts by the PLC to cover up the truth by giving out false attendance figures.
The Hearts game, normally one of the biggest on our calendar, saw an attendance of less than 20,000 (the PLC claimed there were 46,000). The Thistle game, even with free tickets being given out, saw less than 30,000 in the ground (the PLC claimed 52,000). We have a problem – what has gone wrong and how do we sort it?
Both games witnessed no GB and the flattest atmosphere and football at CP for some time – coincidence or not?
The youth are the lifeblood of Celtic. The PLC should be doing everything in their power to encourage them to attend CP not harass them into staying away.
We need to find ways of reversing the current trend and finding ways to entice the youth back to CP.
Make following Celtic a habit, not an afterthought.
How do we do that?
Firstly, we stop harassing the youth. We find out what they want and look for ways to deliver that.
Set up safe standing areas behind both goals and one at the front of the away supporters section. Encourage flags & banners, streamers, drums etc etc. Allow the youth to create an atmosphere, to provide the excitement, the thunder to get the adrenaline going again. How many times have you sat at CP and watched the GB because that is more exciting than the football?
Over the last few seasons my favourite days at CP have all had the GB central to everything. The Four Horsemen was as stunning as a display as I’d ever seen, and completely dominated the game.
The whole stadium, including the hospitality doing The Huddle, Just Can’t Get Enough and Having A Party as Celtic demolished rangers (RIP) in the last ever Old Firm derby match. The display and noise at the Barcelona game (the noise during the CL song at the beginning is as loud as I’ve ever heard at a football match).
Games where the fans and the team seemed to be as one and orchestrated by the GB.
If the GB don’t come back, who will provide the noise, the excitement, the thunder?
Will CP gradually empty more and more each season as the young ones choose to stay away and the old ones become too infirm to attend?
My children have told me what they want – they want to be part of the noise, the excitement, the jumping about – they don’t want to sit in relative silence in the front stand.
My children are no different from anyone else’s children. They want the excitement and if they don’t get it, they’ll find alternatives – it’s already happening.
Celtic are at a crossroads – change needs to happen soon or we will be overseeing the slow demise of the club we have all been brought up to love. I don’t like the whole cleansing of the support, the move to a more corporate support, the denial of our origins –if it continues I’ll think long and hard about renewing my season ticket. The PLC seem happy to play down our Irish origins, but are happy to play it up when is suits them financially – tricolours on sale in the club shop, NL’s tracksuit collar, the clamour every time a blue chip signing is Irish (Robbie & Roy Keane).
If the PLC really have the interests of the club at heart, they will find ways of brokering a deal with the GB and getting them back to CP. They will find the energy to fight the SPL / SFA and insist in safe standing areas at CP.
The PLC have done a great job with the finances, but unless they act quickly they will find the cash flow drying up. If we start losing fans our turnover will suffer, which will lead to less money to be spent on players and a lower calibre signing and annual humiliation in the CL qualifiers.
The time to act is now
Can I add, I am not a member of the GB, am not their spokesperson, do not know anyone who is a member of the GB and have never, to my knowledge, ever spoken to anyone in the GB. I am not even sure the GB would approve of what I have written.
Furthermore, I am Scottish and proud to be so. However, I acknowledge the part Ireland and her politics has played in my club’s history and do not wish that legacy to be cleansed away.
The Doc
Hi Doc, find myself agreeing with a lot you say. The problem is the other side of the argument can be pretty convincing. The water has been muddied so much it is hard to know what is right and what is wrong. Though we clearlyhave problems that need to be resolved or we are on a slippery slope. GB made a fantastic contribution to many wonderful days and nights at paradise, i miss this but was it their own doing? Or is there another reason for there demise? I think PL needs to sort these issues out and if he cant unfortunately we might need fresh blood in to do it for him.
“How many learnt and sang the rebel songs in the Jungle or the back of the Celtic end?. How many of us behaved in a manner then which would be frowned upon today?”
There was a hell of a lot of things going down at games in the old days I have been told about which would get you promptly arrested these days, namely taking massive cargoes into games, being pished as a fart, urinating in public AND on the public and generally horrifc anti-social behaviour. We have moved on from then, thank God. It’s called evolution in a civilised society. Of course singing songs in an albeit ignorant fashjion is not in the same vain but the ASBO behaviour still prevails and, whilst I totally agree that the GB are not wholly to blame for this their naivety in issuing an open invite to one and all to join them in 111 was asking for trouble. Trouble which was duly delivered.
“Imagine being stopped by the police as you walked home from a shopping trip and asked to empty your pockets / bag just so they could see if you had done something wrong –it wouldn’t happen, would it, so why were the owners of the flag treated this way?”
Sorry to inform u grandad that this is very commonplace and has been for as long as I can remember. Don’t know how many times I have been stopped and searched since my teens. It isn’t just Celtic fans and the GB who are subject to this ridiculous law.
“Surely if rebel songs are wrong, this means all rebel songs and not just certain ones?”
No, just the ones mentioning the IRA in whatever guise have been ruled unacceptable. Not too difficult to interpret.
“The PLC seem happy to play down our Irish origins, but are happy to play it up when is suits them financially”
I can’t agree/disagree fully with this. I haven’t seen any clear evidence of ‘playing down Irish origins’ by the board, apart from being asked to refrain from singing songs mentioning the IRA. Why do some people’s idea of Irishness revolve solely around Republicanism and The Troubles? Irish history is a complex beastie and no-one can define what ‘Irishness’ entails in a single soundbite or song.
I can’t disagree with the gist of your article that Celtic Park needs something like the GB to provide colour, atmosphere and spectacle to the matchday experience. When they stuck to football they united the support and were a credit to Celtic. I don’t think the board have handled the entire affair well at all. As for your point of getting the ‘youth’ to Celtic Park and beyond there are plenty of youngsters at CP on matchdays but more has to be done to attract more of them and make them want to stay ther for all their lives but we could do without the Buckfast Provo brigade who wrecked seats at Celtic Park and at Motherwell. It’s a huge ask and I am not entirely sure of the answers but that is surely what the PLC is being paid handsomely for?
You keep on using the lexicon of those who know nothing about republicanism. For instance what songs do -sorry did- the GB that mentioned the IRA? And if they did, why is this such a bad thing?
Your equation of how folks are treated myself and my weans included for years with being stopped and searched show that you have obviously never witnessed it. We used to have massive queues and searches all intended to turn folk against the GB, it didnae work.
The eradication of part of our heritage is at the heart of what your comments are about here. The ‘buckfast Prove’ barb and linking them to Fir Park shows that fully. The PLC have been caught out now in lying/alluding to something without actually spitting it out.
I take it you are an afficienado of that.
Great article Doc and I couldn’t agree with you more.
ABSOLUTELY BRILLIANT DOC. I was transferred back in time as I started following Celtic that season too and relate to the lifts over, the Celtic end, The Jungle and onto the Green Brigade. I am also Scottish and very proud of it but like you, look to the heritage of Celtic. The best write up, as far as I’m concerned, I’ve read. Many thanks Doc for posting it.
Get a fecking poem written about it then lazy bones
🙂
Great article, and agree with everything you say. However, I still think we are a long way from a line in the sand moment. The PLC and Dermot Desmond seem content on how things are going, and I can see it getting a lot worse before it gets better.
The Green Brigade is dead.
Hi Doc,
Excellent piece Doc,
I used to stand under the cameras in the Jungle, anything went in those days, from pish running down the back of your leg, chewing gum & macaroon bars 🙂
I remember Archie MacPherson used to take some grief as he walked along the gantry to the cameras lol!
I only ever wanted to go to the Jungle but sometimes had to go into the Celtic end if I was running late.
The Green Brigade have been brilliant for Celtic & the stadium, giving it colour & atmosphere.
It saddens me to see them being treated the way they are by the Police & particularly Celtic, we need all our fans in the stadium,adhering to the stadium rules & adding to the Celtic experience.
Pyro’s, flares & fireworks should NOT be set off in ANY stadium & if the Celtic fans are doing this we should be punished.
Irish politics at Celtic park will always be a part of our fabric & so it should, however the football is why we are there primarily!
I support the Green Brigade & feel Peter Lawwell should tell the police to #uck off regarding information on our fans.
If we aren’t allowed to remember & celebrate Bobby Sands & his 9 brave companions, we shouldn’t be applauding Nelson Mandela then, just my opinion.
The Green Brigade shouldn’t be allowed to do what they like but the Police are needing to relax a bit.
Regarding the Police & stewarding, your right, they should have been checking tickets at Fir park & outing the appropriate ticket to the seat, what do the Police get paid to do, stand there & watch the game?
Video the fans?
If they see a guy with a flare, arrest him then!!!
Celtic’s Irishism will never be diluted, it’s a source of pride, Celtic & Lawwell & Desmond in particular, need to start talking our fans up again!
It’s time to unite the support!
HH!
Fantastic article. I couldn’t have penned it any better myself. You speak for me an thousands others in the exact way we feel towards Celtic an it’s support.
I hope Celtic an the GB can work things out.
Like you in recent memory my favorite Celtic games have all been 1 the GB played a big part in, it doesn’t feel the same anymore at Cp with out them.
Hail hail
Sad to say but I’ll tell you what will unite you. The return of Sevco to the top flight and more importantly as part of the double act. This has been the mission since the manky mob have been allowed by all and sundry to shed their debt and return as before. Our board and many of our support, specifically those who don’t do politix, will welcome with open wallets the re-unification and take up their rightful place as victim. It’s over.
The school we attended no longer affects our job prospects. Surely we can celebrate Irishness without rebel songs. The Wallace and H Block banners were inane. The GB did not stick to there agreement with the club ref. banners, pyros and standing on seats. The club cannot allow a small no. of GB leaders to set the agenda.
On the subject of “no politics at f/ball grounds”, what was with all the SNP , and “vote YES” hoarding round the pitch at St Mirren on Sunday?
Saw those…was wondering if the green Brigade could afford advertising at celtic Park!
There was also a very large SCOTTISH LABOUR hoarding just to the right of the half way line so Saints happy to appeal to all sponsorship bodies.
Great piece that many will recognise as their own history and proud of it.
The do right / PC pizza munchers and the plc have allowed our culture to be criminalised, I’ll never forgive law well for that.
I got three kids following the same path as myself and the author of the piece, the worry for Celtic is right now there has never been so little excitement about being a tim and so much anger at the club from my family.
The plc and the do rights are turning the club into a merchandising outlet… Less than a club, more like a brand.
I’m sick of it .
Interesting how, when Ajax were fined 50kEUR for the “FENIAN BASTARDS” banner, they immediately contacted UEFA and had fine halved.No juxtapositioning of political figures (i.e.Wallace/Sands)remember. Just good old fashioned full on sectarianism/racism.Yet their fine halved,after Ajax appeal.
Yet our guys seemed content to “take the full hit” of 50kEUR without challenge.Was it that they thought the extra 25k was worth it ,if it emphasised GBs wrongdoing?
Incidentaly, when that banner in the Arena was reported to Celtic stewards in the ground, their reply was, “what banner.We didn’t see it”.
Well said live in Canada for the last 30 years I come from Carluke Itis the home off Carluke Shamrock Support Club I Live and breath Celtic Sorry to hear that things have not changed as far as the police and the Plc are concerned the supporter are just there to spend money I love the G B They make P C come alive Hope thing get better soner than later Hail Hail JMJ
similar comments to Frank, some of the points are well made and we do need to get something done about getting the fans back and sustaining our support but Celtic fans were to blame for what happened at Motherwell, please do not muddy the waters with stewarding – bad stewarding does not in any make what happened anything less than shameful. I have sang rebel songs in the past, with emphasis on the past. Anything with the IRA in it is unacceptable and I am ashamed when I hear the songs being sung, for me ‘up the ra’ is every bit as bad as the billy boys.
I sit in 112 and didn’t realise police are not at all turnstiles. I have never seen any behaviour from the fans entering warranting different treatment than other fans. As a woman frequently arriving alone I have nothing but respect for other supporters in this area. Sitting where I do, I have often seen the police standing filming the crowd particularly 111. The Green Brigade are not bigger than the club, but have been treated shamefully.
There used to be clever , inventive and importantly humorous articles on this site.
Excitement at CP does not come from political sloganeering and lecturing to fans who don’t need nor want it. If I read another ‘I used to stand in the jungle’ reminisce I think I’ll greet. When the Rebs were getting belted out in the past the six counties were at war and the atmosphere was of a different time.
Time has moved on, and we need to respect the past and the dead and not trivialise it at what is a game of football ffs.
miclelmac…get yer kleenex out, ah buken GREW UP in the Jungle. Bet you never.
Doc:
I didn’t grow up in the Jungle. I’m not Scottish or Irish. Fans like you are what makes Celtic more than just a club, fabulous article mate…
Great article,told from the heart.
But as you can see, the PC posters on here HATE the GB.
I never thought I would see the day, that Celtic fan would hate
Celtic fan. A very sad day.
My late folks brought me up to respect everbody as equal.
They found it tough to get employment in sectarian 50’s scotland.
They set up their own business to challenge this hostile environment.Success followed success.
Doc, my life story is similar to you.Celtic and Jungle ( sorry if it
upsets anybody on here) went hand in hand.
The politics of our club,go hamd in hand with Irish politics.
In the 70’s I loved learning all the old rebs,from my dad’s stash of LP’s behind the old piano.
You were PROUD to sing these songs at Celtic Park.They are non- sectarian songs.As many will know these GREAT PROTESTANT MEN rebel song.
Alas, the state police and powers that be,frown upon our songs
of community. Why do we let them ?
We have our streets taken over by sectarian marches every year, do we have a say in this ?
My late father told me to stand up for your rights, and what you beleive in.
The time has come now to make that stand at Celtic Park.Lets be vocal and demonstrate outside the front door at CP.
Great article.Cannot see the board or lawell admitting they screwed up. CP needs the GB and the atmossphere they bring. Politics has always and still is a big part of football – poppy,Mandela tribute, silence for queen mother etc so lets cut the bullshit around it.The club should not have accepted the fine for the Sands banner,but like the meek lambs they are,they bowed and cowered to the mighty uefa.The board , like some posters here,were quick to ride the GB wave of great banners and displays and profit from it,but now they can’t wait to get rid of them because of their Irishness. Is this not racist ? I do however still have a soft spot for these posters and our board. Quicksand.
Good stuff! Ralpa/Desimond – I have a wee item connected to this issue you might be interested in, – maybe even for next podcast?