Theres been a lot of talk , and a lot of conjecture over what actually happened in the square when the Dutch undercover police decided to wade into the Celtic support that had been enjoying a pre match meet in the capital.
Despite there being eight webcams , and all the resultant footage available, no clear picture of events has emerged. Certainly no chronological record. Mainly because no-one has looked for it.
There is footage of supporters attacking police, and police attacking supporters. Each side blames the other, and each side has made their own case to support their own actions.
A Dutch court has decided that five Celtic supporters were guilty of violence in a public place. The supporting video evidence led to the conviction. In court, the evidence was strong enough to convict. Any appeal will have to be based around new evidence. ( See previous article, Amsterdam, what should we do next ? )
No-one in the press has tried to look into the reasons for what happened. No-one in the press has demanded answers for the police over reaction. We are only going to deal with facts here. It was an over reaction. There was no reason to expect any trouble from the large Celtic support in Amsterdam. They cannot be said to have “previous ”
There was no reason for the massive uniformed police presence, unless they were expecting trouble from locals. They do have previous, as demonstrated in Glasgow in the first game a couple of weeks before.
However, the police were there, highly visible, and in a state of high readiness. Local fans would have known this.
There was also a large number of plain clothes police, mingling with the fans. As yet, no-one has offered a feasible explanation for this. Crowd control is about controlling a crowd with positive action, whilst making it clear to the crowd that there is sufficient strength to deal with any problems that may arise, thus providing both a deterrent and a re-assurance.
If there was a threat from Ajax supporters, the visible police presence would have been a sufficient deterrent.
If there was a threat from visiting fans, including those of the other clubs in Amsterdam that day, again, the visible police presence should have been enough to prevent trouble.
Celtics support is , by and large, self policing. The majority of those in Amsterdam would have been experienced European travellers, and those who weren’t would have been kept in check by fellow fans. That is what usually happens, and normally does not lead to any problems.
However, something must have started it. These things don’t just happen, and the mood in the square during the day wasn’t tense enough, according to eye witnesses, to give a sense that something was inevitably going to happen.
The Celtic support was there to enjoy themselves, but the priority was to see the game.
At around six o’clock, they would have began to make their way to either the ground, or a suitable hostelry to watch the game. It simply does not follow that they would have to be forced to do so.
We know that some Ajax supporters stole a flag. We know that some Celtic supporters chased them to get the flag back. We know that the police then moved in and attacked and detained dozens of Celtic fans.
Were the police waiting for an opportunity to clear the square ?
Was this the excuse they needed ?
We know the order went out from the mayor of Amsterdam to clear the square. Which would have cleared anyway as kick off time approached. So why the hurry ?
Even if the police had decided the flashpoint was serious enough to warrant a closure of the area to the public, then it still doesn’t make sense to do it in the way they did it. again, footage of this is widely available.
So, why did they do it in the way they did ?
On 6 November 2013, His Majesty King Willem-Alexander awarded the Erasmus Prize 2013 to the German scholar Jürgen Habermas (1929) at the Royal Palace Amsterdam.
The annual Erasmus Prize is intended for persons or institutions that have made an exceptional contribution to culture in Europe. The Prize is awarded for acknowledged achievements and is not intended as a stimulant to young talent. The cash amount of the Prize is fixed at 150,000 Euro. The Prize will be presented by H.M. the King, the Patron of the Foundation, during a ceremony that usually takes place in the Royal Palace in Amsterdam.
The theme of the Erasmus Prize this year is ‘the future of democracy’. For over 50 years, Jürgen Habermas has been one of the leading thinkers in the fields of sociology, philosophy and politics. Central in his thinking is democracy and the commitment of the citizens. He is sharp and critical in his political analysis, but at the same time optimistic about the future of a democratic Europe. He beliefs in the debate, in ratio as the source of politics and in the equality of man. With his humanistic views and commitment to the future of Europe he embodies the Erasmian values the Praemium Erasmianum Foundation holds so dear.
The Royal Amsterdam palace had a very important person in there that day, the King. The full guest list for this ceremony is a little harder to find, but there may have been other important people there as well. In fact, given the nature of these events, its certain there would have been.
This is the palace, viewed from Dam Square;
So, there were very important people on one side, and a bunch of Celtic fans on the other. Those very important people would have had to go home at some point…
If this was in London, or Edinburgh, and VIPs were in close proximity to football fans-okay, lets consider they would have been drinking, drunk football fans were across the road, then the police would have moved them.
Actually, thats not true, the police would have not allowed the situation in the first place.
The Netherlands has a reputation for liberalism. Perhaps they felt that they could easily control the situation. The plain clothes police may not have been there for the football support after all. The royal family were across the road. these sort of people follow royals around no matter what the country.
The Ajax fans who nicked a flag and got chased may have inadvertently caused the massive overeaction that took place.
The police, it seems, panicked and moved in to clear the crowd before the King went home for his tea.
Someone, somewhere, has made an arse of it.
And five Celtic fans are the scapegoats.
We need the press in this country to dig a wee bit deeper. And to find the truth. Because it is out there. Already the press in Beguim and the Netherlands are asking questions…its what they do in liberal countries.
Watch this clip from you tube, which may well be the confirmation we need. Two ladies discuss the “war ” going on in the square.
Now, I’m not a journalist. I might be full of shit, but that alone is not enough qualification to enter that particular trade. Though you’d have thought that it would have got me an interview at most papers.
Whether or not this article turns out to be right, and does point the finger of blame in the right place, only time will tell.
However, the facts within have alerted at least one Dutch MP, who may well be asking questions in parliament.
It merits further investigation. We need to ask the Scottish Sports media for their help here.
Surely one of them must know someone at their paper qualified to investigate this matter ?
Thanks to CarlJunglebhoy who is fighting the fight over in amsterdam. At least one person is doing some digging. Praise also to Sligobhoy and Celtic Research who are working on it as well.
If anyone else has any other info, that perhaps we have missed, you know where we are.
I believe you’ve ” hit the nail on the head” with this.
I’m not even sure the Ajax fans flag bit directly contributed to it.
More likely a late panicked decision was made to “clear the square”, quickly.(Didn’t someone from the court or police say,”when you were told to LEAVE THE SQUARE you should have just left”)
The fans had been in the square all day . By 5pm it was getting fuller and noisier but all in good spirits. Is it pos as spirits and noise escalated, and time for VIP’s to leave approached, someone panicked, (King Willem of Orange in front of “raucous” Celtic fans),and ordered immediate clearing of the square ( without giving any reason for this sudden move to fans).
If these assumptions are true, and I see huge merit in them,then the person who made that call needs exposed.By the way, the fans weren’t interested in who was or was not leaving that building. It was completely unnecessary to “clear the square”.
why did they just not cordon off the square early morning before the fans woke up or arrived in the city
SORRY, but unless I’m living in a parallel universe, or have lost my jorries completely – (both are possible) then this statement is completely wrong:
“….The supporting video evidence led to the conviction. In court, the evidence was strong enough to convict…”
The ONLY video footage shown in public court was the one in which Padraig (/Tommy/Andy) got the shit kicked out of them -so that hardly was likely to be strong enough to convict any of them”
As I said in my messy,rushed write-up:-
The only “evidence” the prosecution provided which resulted in conviction – and even that was full of holes & may even have been tweaked later to fit – were the written Police statements. In short, because the judge choose to accept those as fact, and “we only have the accused’s word that what they say happened” (or words to that effect), whereas the Police’s statement contain corroboration form more than 1 person, the Judeg saw “no reason to doubt” their accuracy. Thats what got then conviction not the horrific Padraig video.
I wonder what Herr Habermas would think of it, being an upholder of the Democratic process.
I thought I read somewhere that the video evidence was deemed inadmissible in court.
There was some considerable discussion about, not only the admissablity of video evidence in general, but over which particular pieces/types would be admissable. However, the decision on this was not made in open court but, in the equivelant of Judge’s chambers. There was a short break to allow the Judge to mull it over & decided.
Basically the ONLY video piece actually shown was the infamous Pzdraig (Tommy/Andy) bit. Other video footage – including film of Celtic fans attacking a tram were not allowed. It’s my understanding that there was something a trade off involved. The defence was allowed to show the most shocking bit of footage available, but neither the footage of the chief visible scumbag/culpit being chased by Celtic fans and running in panic into a lamppost, and the ram viedo were not as they were not directly related to the charges against the accused.
My apologies. The lines should read;
” The accused were told that the police said they were guilty, and as in most courts , that will result in a conviction. Which is what will happen during the appeal unless fresh evidence is presented. ”
Instead of the line about video evidence.
My fault-i was in a rush to get to Glasgow to watch that shite last night.
Nae borra Ralph! We all make mistakes when rushing. At least that’s what my wife tells me. Just imagine how much worse it would have been if you were also told you had a boring voice! (Exits trying hard to stiffle giggles)
THE ANSWER IS VERY SIMPLE,TELL THE CLOGGIE BASTARDS TAE SHUV THEIR TICKETS TICKETS RIGHT UP THEIR “‘ RONSON LIGHTER AND STAY AWAY FAE SCUMBAG CLOGGIEVILLE, FUR GOOD
Doh.ram viedo – should read tram video
Ram Viedo sounds exactly like a clinical South American striker we need!
Aye, but I heard he was Scheidt